Question about driving position in relation to wheels

Kinja'd!!! "BaconSandwich is tasty." (baconsandwich)
12/12/2015 at 11:28 • Filed to: None

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This is something that I’ve been thinking about: how does distance from the driver to the front wheels affect handling?

In order maximize interior space and give a decent bit of off-road ability, it makes sense to push the wheels of a vehicle to the very corners. Take, for example, the Jeep Wrangler:

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(Image source:blessthisstuff.com)

The front wheels are positioned pretty much at the front of the vehicle. If running into something, the only thing that would hit before them would be the front bumper. But supposing that such a vehicle was made using an electric platform with a “skateboard” style design, what would prevent someone from moving the driving position forward two feet or more? Would the different driving dynamics just totally weird people out?

I keep thinking about making something like the !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! , but I wonder a person could better utilize interior space. Because of the general shape of the vehicle, there’s looks to be lots of room in the front end - possibly enough room to move the driving position forward by a bit. In the video, the fellow driving it already mentions that it is a bit odd to drive because you are already sitting that far forward. So I guess my question is this: if both the front wheels and the driving position are moved forward by the same amount, how does that affect the general feel of the vehicle?

I suppose another case where something like this comes into play is mid-engined cars. Since the engine is basically in the middle, can handling be improved by moving the front wheels further forward? In a Le Mans car, there isn’t much wiggle room here, but even if the depth of the headlights could be reduced by, say, 10 cm, that would allow the front wheels to be moved that much more forward. Would such a thing be worth it?

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(Image source:autoblog.com)


DISCUSSION (18)


Kinja'd!!! Berang > BaconSandwich is tasty.
12/12/2015 at 12:21

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You’re thinking of a lot of different things that aren’t necessarily related.

Wheelbase, overhang, and driving position.

The distance between the driver and front wheels may not change the actual dynamics of the vehicle, but it will change the handling in terms of perceived maneuverability and ride quality.

Being close to the front gives the driver a better view which makes the vehicle easier to maneuver through tight spaces. However putting the seat closer to the center of the vehicle increases quality of the ride/comfort. Think of the difference between sitting in the middle of the bus, or sitting in the back, well beyond the rear axle. It’s way bouncier in the back, and pretty smooth riding in the middle.


Kinja'd!!! Captain of the Enterprise > BaconSandwich is tasty.
12/12/2015 at 12:30

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There are also packaging issues for example the driver can't really share space with the engine and trans etc.


Kinja'd!!! BaconSandwich is tasty. > Captain of the Enterprise
12/12/2015 at 12:32

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That’s why I’m thinking more skateboard style battery pack in an electric car. You don’t have the same sort of obstructions.


Kinja'd!!! BaconSandwich is tasty. > Berang
12/12/2015 at 12:35

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That’s one of the things I was thinking of - city buses, and how the driver is in front of the front axle. It must take a bit of learning to get used to such a driving position.


Kinja'd!!! Urambo Tauro > BaconSandwich is tasty.
12/12/2015 at 12:53

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Flat-nosed buses do take some getting used to, but there are a lot more things affecting the driving experience, like the overall length. They’re kinda fun, though. The seating position and forward view is quite commanding, and it helps a lot.


Kinja'd!!! BaconSandwich is tasty. > Urambo Tauro
12/12/2015 at 13:00

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I imagine it’ quite the opposite of driving a Panoz , or piloting a large ship from the rear.


Kinja'd!!! Captain of the Enterprise > BaconSandwich is tasty.
12/12/2015 at 13:04

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true


Kinja'd!!! Eric @ opposite-lock.com > BaconSandwich is tasty.
12/12/2015 at 13:11

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Wheelbase affects ride quality and stability. Distance from the wheels affects ride quality. Handling isn’t strongly related to it aside from packaging of suspension (which is a constraint on designers).

Note that companies like BMW used to push their wheels as far out to the corners as possible (see the front of older BMWs for an example). Citroen took this to extremes early on and built very curious suspension systems to maximize it.

Off road capability is due to overhang that controls approach and departure angles. It isn't done for handling or ride quality. See rock crawlers, Baja trucks, and other purpose-built off road vehicles for plenty of examples.


Kinja'd!!! BaconSandwich is tasty. > Eric @ opposite-lock.com
12/12/2015 at 14:59

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I actually kind of like the look of some of those BMWs. I find the overhang on some of the new supercars to be pretty ridiculous - I’m guessing they partially do it for aerodynamics, especially to get the air up or around large tires.


Kinja'd!!! If only EssExTee could be so grossly incandescent > BaconSandwich is tasty.
12/12/2015 at 16:33

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Distance from driver to front makes no diffrrence in dynamics. It’s all in the distance between the driver and the rear axle, because that’s where the vehicle pivots around when turning. Ever driven a cabover truck? The driving sensation is not conducive to any sort of performance driving. You’re actually swinging left/right along with the entire front of the vehicle.

Traditionally proportioned roadsters are the way they are for a reason. When you’re practically sitting on top of the rear axle, it feels much more natural because you’re at the car’s pivot point, it’s now turning about you instead of way behind you.


Kinja'd!!! tidymaze > BaconSandwich is tasty.
12/12/2015 at 17:10

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I drive a flat-nose (aka transit style) school bus (for my job. it’s not my daily driver). It wasn’t that difficult to get used to it. The only noticeable difference between that style and a “conventional” (i.e. engine in the front) vehicle is that you need to drive further out into an intersection before making a turn when you are sitting in front of the front wheels.


Kinja'd!!! JCAlan > BaconSandwich is tasty.
12/12/2015 at 18:55

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Kinja'd!!! BaconSandwich is tasty. > If only EssExTee could be so grossly incandescent
12/12/2015 at 18:57

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Makes sense. I guess the closest thing I have driven would be a forklift, but it was also rear steer.


Kinja'd!!! Eric @ opposite-lock.com > BaconSandwich is tasty.
12/12/2015 at 19:14

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Most cars do. The body overhang in front of the wheels is traded for a lower drag coefficient on modern cars...


Kinja'd!!! If only EssExTee could be so grossly incandescent > BaconSandwich is tasty.
12/12/2015 at 19:23

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I don’t know how you’d experience the feel of being over the front wheels short of becoming a delivery driver, but the easiest route to that “roadster feel” would be to befriend someone with an old Wrangler and get them to let you drive it.

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Kinja'd!!! If only EssExTee could be so grossly incandescent > BaconSandwich is tasty.
12/12/2015 at 19:40

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Seating position also makes a huge difference in ride comfort. If you look at my (shitty) graphic below, you can see that when you say, go over a speed bump (looking at the vehicle from the side) the first axle to go over deflects up, and the car pivots at the rear axle. The front of the car experiences the most vertical movement, and directly over the rear axle experiences none, BUT once the front axle clears the bump the back axle goes over and you can flip the illustration left/right. Thus, the seating position in the vehicle that experiences the least jostling is halfway between the axles because you experience two little motions rather than one big one.

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Kinja'd!!! BaconSandwich is tasty. > If only EssExTee could be so grossly incandescent
12/12/2015 at 20:36

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Good point.


Kinja'd!!! BaconSandwich is tasty. > If only EssExTee could be so grossly incandescent
12/12/2015 at 20:37

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It looks like basically 2/3rds of the vehicle is in front of the driver with the driver sitting just barely forward of the rear axel.

Also, that white truck in the background is pretty cool looking.